[bendy-timed] Let's Get It All Out [locked to New Hires except Price, Mac, and Jack Spicer]

[credit_not_blame]

[Not too long after some of the New Hires come back from this mess of a mission, a locked down video post appears on the secret network from everyone's favorite still-underaged-shhhh werewolf. She looks perky, in the slightly manic manner of someone gearing up for a fight.]


Since everyone got so excited about my question regarding what we were going to do with the Jorgmund scientists on the last mission, promptly turning it into a seething argument on whether or not killing is ever acceptable, I've decided to bring it up here on the Rig. Because apparently we need to have this conversation now or else we're going to have it at a completely inappropriate time and place; like on a mission where we're trying to plan out how to escape a prison that mind-fucks us.

[Because really, people? Really? Stacia clears her throat and schools her expression back into a smile.]

I'm going to need everyone to shitpost like crazy on the public side of things, because I can't be in charge of that and in charge of moderating this, the hottest of topics.

Speaking of, guess what. I'm in charge of moderating this conversation because Lonestar likes me best. Or because I volunteered; six of one, half dozen of the other. That means that I can freeze your threads and put you in time out if you break the rules.



1) Don't be an asshole. This is my favorite rule, and I am become Asshole Arbiter. Keep a civil tongue in your head and/or civil fingers on your keyboard. I recognize that this is a topic that is very contentious and very important to a lot of people, but we have to be able to work with each other. Allow me to remind you that we have been literally enslaved by a corporation in a reality separate from our own that has implanted internal shock collars inside our bodies. The attitude of your fellow enslaved are not the biggest problem here.

2) Participate in good faith. There are a few people who have not been invited to this conversation because I don't trust them to follow this rule. While I believe that having shit-stirrers around is important, I don't have the energy to wrangle them and all of you right now. If you decide that now is the time to reveal yourself as a shit-stirrer and you just want to piss people off, you will be declared an asshole and in violation of Rule 1.

3) This is a discussion to help determine what we're doing to do moving forward, not a moral debate. Obviously if you feel that killing someone is always wrong, that will inform your argument. That's fine! But if I see anyone going on about how so-and-so is naive idiot for refusing to kill or such-and-such is a monster because they do kill, I'm gonna put you in time out. Even if I agree with you! Because see Rule 1.

4) Feel free to self-moderate! I can't be everywhere at once -- in fact, there's only one of me. If you find yourself in a debate that isn't going anywhere, feel free to excuse yourself. Or even to not respond! You will not actually die if you don't get the last word in! If someone excuses themself from an exchange with you or stops responding to you, do not follow them around to continue harassing them. See again Rule 1.

5) If I freeze your thread or put you in time-out, go shitpost until you've calmed down again. Or read over what you were posting and ask yourself what was happening that I came in and put a stop to it. Or, if you feel that I am a most unfair and power-drunk bitch, you can go and make your own discussion post. Then whether or not you're in violation of Rule 1 is not my problem anymore.

Comments

[credit_not_blame]

I'll kick things off, since I imagine I won't have time later: I don't care for killing people. Outside of extremely specific circumstances, dead people stay dead and if you find out that you done fucked up somehow, it's fucked up forever.

On this last mission, it turned out that accidents not befalling the various Jorg scientists was the most correct answer. Our mission was their retrieval, and they had Other K the Saboteur among them. I'm relieved it worked out that way, and especially that the Bey and his people showed up to nab the townsfolk and the other people Jorg had yote into sitcom hell. Frankly, if they'd wanted to chuck a few rocks at the people who'd hurt them, I'd have been inclined to let them.

However, I also think that sometimes killing someone is the lesser of two evils. Speaking as a monster, sometimes the only way to stop a monster from doing further harm is to kill them. And regular humans can be monsters, even without teeth and claws.

[fuckcable]

You can’t make words like “monster” or “freak” part of your argument. It’s too subjective.

My line is somewhere before “kidnaps and tortures kids.” There’s a lot of of crimes that I don’t think someone can come back from.

[credit_not_blame]

[Stacia raises her eyebrows.]

"Hey, Stacia, could you elaborate on what you mean when you say 'monsters'?" "Sure, Ric, I'd be happy to."

I'm not using it as part of my argument; if I thought that every monster deserved to be killed, then I wouldn't have used the word to self-identify, would I? Most of my dearest and closest friends qualify as monsters. It's a sliding scale, and it could be argued that your qualification is as well. Or do you think that everyone employed by Jorgmund deserves to die for what they did to Josh? Or what they did to those of us who were under 18 when we landed here?

[video]

[tr1xx]

Honestly I cannae fuckin' believe I didn't say this during that whole shiteshow, but knowing there was a saboteur amongst the scientists reminded me:

[ She claps her hands together. She's talking animatedly, but not agitatedly. She'd had time to think about this. ]

Ye cannae assume that every scientist workin' for a corrupt power is there willingly.

For one, look at us! Aye, we're an extreme example, with the shock collars, but ye know what people like Jorg do when they don't have enough smart people willing to help 'em? They kidnap and force people to do it!

Back home, we're dealin' with our own evil bastards and recently rescued multiple scientists they kidnapped to make work for 'em. There's plenty others still missin'. Kidnappin', threatenin' families, blah blah blah, ye get the picture, are real effective blackmail. It's all well an' good sayin' everyone involved in projects like we saw are 'evil scientists', but people like Other K exist.

And I dinnae ken about you guys, but I think that's something we oughta keep in mind. With scientists an' otherwise. Regardless of yer feelings on murder as a whole.

Which, for the record? I don't like killin'. Not unless there's no other choice. And I say that as someone fightin' in a war.

Re: [video]

[credit_not_blame]

That's a good point, and something we should maybe ask the K's about. Which people here are only here under duress? Which people are here because the Jorg is better than any other option they have, even though they don't like the shit the Jorg does? Is there anyone in the collar program who we can possibly flip?

[tr1xx]

Aye, I think that'd be a good idea. People are people, there's no way everyone left with brains is so evil they're goin' along with all this shite without some reason. Not sayin' every reason is gonna be one we can do anythin' about, but...

[ She gestures vaguely. ]

[walkingballpit]

[ Somewhere in the Rig, Robbie is debating all of the pranks that he could, but won’t, pull on Stacia in retaliation for “Lonestar likes me best.” Bubblegum is heavily involved. ]

[video]

[zerg_rush]

I'm curious where the no-killing side draws a line. Is there ever a point where you decide that yes, okay, the world would be better off without a particular asshole using up other people's oxygen?

I don't like killing, I just don't think it's always avoidable.

[This is a very nuanced position from the actual assassin, y'all.]

Re: [video]

[walkingballpit]

Imminent and otherwise unavoidable risk to sentient life. It can’t be about whether someone deserves to die or doesn’t deserve to live, or if it’s easier to kill them.

[video]

[zerg_rush]

[Kerrigan, who is definitely all about revenge and/or purely strategic killing:]

Huh. Okay.

[Pause.]

What if it's tactical? Like taking out the officer with the nuclear launch codes before a battle starts. That's not some war college hypothetical—I've done that.

[tr1xx]

Particular assholes, maybe, aye; I can think of a few people I probably wouldn't dump a bucketa water on if they were on fire, even if I'm never gonna be the kinda person to set 'em on fire.

But outsida self-defense? If ye have the choice, ye gotta save it for the kinda people who there's absolutely no chance yer gonna stop 'em hurting people otherwise. And usually that's the big assholes in charge, aye? People with the actual power to do harm that ye can't hope to stop any other way.

[zerg_rush]

Yeah, it turns out we have more of those than I thought back home.

[Haha everything in StarCraft is always on fire.]

[hallelujahjunction]

I don't reckon we're a side so much as a spectrum with lines drawn in different places for each person.

[Dan's not exactly psyched to see this be the topic of network discussion, given how the last debate of this nature went down, which is why he's hanging out on the roof again dodging butterflies for cheap adrenalin to occupy his mind before he jumps in.]

I know it ain't always avoidable either. Robbie put it better than I could, but naturally, what's an "unavoidable" or "imminent" risk might could look different for different people.

[credit_not_blame]

That's a decent assessment of our situation, thanks Dan. But I think we need to come to some kind of consensus on where we as a group are going to draw the lines, or else we're going to end up fighting each other as much as we are the Jorg.

[wheyoftheadept]

[Saturday is using video for this; her usual laissez-faire typing style seems inappropriate.]

I don't have moral objections to killing, exactly. What I do got problems with is who, how, and why. Like in the recent thing - if we'da had time to figure out each scientist's deal an' isolate the bastards from the fellow sufferers - well, I still woulda been against it 'cause tactically an' strategically it wasn't the right time for that kinda strike on Jorgmund. But if it had been, I woulda preferred to exercise some discernment. Not just 'cause everyone was real pissed, which seemed to be where people were coming from. If you're gonna kill, do it fast, do it for a sound tactical an' strategic reason, and do it as little as possible. 'S how my pops taught me.

Not sayin' I'm an angel in that regard, though, or always did right. I've killed with hate and vengeance in my heart, for no reason other than the bastards picked a fight with the wrong bitch that day. I've killed to send a message. On at least one occasion, I've let someone die a bad death 'cause I figured they deserved it. Ain't proud of it, but there it is. The place I grew up in ain't the kind of place where doin' the right thing is easy even if you can figure out what it is.

[Saturday shifts, uncomfortable. This is unnerving, like talking about sex or politics in public]

I guess, lookin' back, the line I don't cross is like - not doin' t'others any worse then they've done or tried t'do t'me. Proportionate response, as much as possible. Not really sure where to go with that, except I'll try to remember what other folks think, and abide by it when I can.

[paganpoetry]

My dear, the fact that you're asking for people to come to a consensus instead of simply asserting your own will over them means that you have a ways to go before you are truly an unfair and power-drunk bitch.

[credit_not_blame]

[Stacia giggles.]

Oh, I know that I'm neither unfair nor power-drunk. But I'm absolutely prepared to let someone complain about how I am, and then find out exactly what kind of a pain in the ass it is to run this kind of discussion.

Video

[greyerrant]

Killing is a part of my work as an Astartes. Some would argue it is the most important part, though we are soldiers, not assassins. I prefer honorable battle when it is available, but it is something that should only be undertaken when more amiable options have been exhausted.

My brotherhood was viewed as a final sanction, not a first resort, and I tend to view killing in much the same way. I prefer comity, at least within the realms of humanity and it's offshoots. [ Loken diplomatically keeps his opinions on xenos and daemons silent. ]

Video

[googledox]

Only humans and their offshoots?

[Yes he instantly and immediately went there.]

Given that humans may not be the only lifeforms we encounter - since alternate dimensions are folding in and out of this world - it seems prudent to establish everyone's sentiments now.

Re: Video

[greyerrant]

While I have seen theoretical and one practical example of humanity's cooperation with nonhumans, it has generally led to grief. [ That was totally the fault of Erebus but he doesn't know that. ]

video

[garmr]

[well, this is new. Guts is very much used to being the guy who gets pointed at the thing to stab, rather than asking about whether he should stab in the first place]

Where I come from, you didn't really have much option on whether or not you'd kill. Guess the answer is simpler like that. You've got your hands full just keepin' your own alive, and you deal with the ghosts later.

Don't necessarily think that's a great way to live, though...

Re: video

[wheyoftheadept]

'S a good point, thoough. A lot of our different attitudes seem to come down to like a baseline of what we've been taught is possible or impossible in the world we're from, an' every world seems to be a different situation with different rules. Like there's overlap, but it's all basically unique. Part of what we're dealing with, maybe, is that like -

[She gestures, as if she can pull the right words from vapor]

We don't actually know what's realistic for this world? It's not ours. None of us are from here. We're all starting with assumptions that are different from everyone else's an' who knows what if any of that even applies to the place we are right now, you know? Which is why we're here, in this post.

[garmr]

If we're drawin' lines here, my priority is for our own to come back in one piece, and cutting down whatever gets in the way if it comes to that. There are enough unknowns on the field to try and predict them all. Even if you've got everything lined up, it could all still go to hell.

[someone has a cheery attitude about things!]

We got lucky we made the right call this time around. It won't always be like that. Sometimes your hands will have to get dirtier than you'll like.

[takenalive]

I don't think any opinion I hold on this subject should carry great weight. I'm not a good person. Great misery has come of my decisions to kill my enemies and their people, and their slaves. Great misery has come from the mercy of those of my people who couldn't bring themselves to kill me when I was a slave. Yet if I had died things would have gone much worse for Earth.

I like to imagine I have learned some little wisdom, but if so it is the wisdom that I am a poor arbiter of this. Some of my choices I would make differently, if I could, but others were made in desperate situations where there was no ethical way forwards.

[freakenstein]

I kind of already said my piece on this in the last conversation but to clarify more; I'm not against killing exactly, but I do prefer it as a last resort. And I make no distinctions between sentient species with that stance.

[Pausing, for a moment, Merton is practically bursting at the seems with nervous energy; the floating tablet catching him bouncing on his heals, and swinging his arms at his sides. This conversation seemed to be going along a lot better then the last one, but it's not a topic he's great at talking about.]

But full disclosure; I have had to...[He paused again, chewing on the edge of his lip as he frets over how to word this. It struck him that it was probably a dumb thing to fret over considering most of the people here had been forced to kill someone at some point (another odd through-line in their group), but it still felt like something he should word carefully. To not give the wrong impression of himself and what kinds of acts he was capable of or felt comfortable with. And putting that into words was hard. Partly because he wasn't sure how many of the monsters or people he and his friends had "killed" were actually dead, and partly because it wasn't really something he and his friends really talked about or lingered on.]

There were times where my friends and I have had to defend ourselves, and that hasn't always had a happy ending where everyone walked away. So, my hands aren't clean, and I understand there are times when that can't be avoided. I'd just prefer if we didn't go that route where it wasn't absolutely necessary. And I'm sort of with Dan on the whole, being against killing for revenge.

[...For the most part.]